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Coronavirus and vitamin C for immune support: new pain or more severe pain due to oxalate issues?

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coronavirus pain vitamin c

I have concerns regarding the use of high doses of oral vitamin C for boosting immunity – for a subset of susceptible individuals who have dietary oxalate issues. This is directly related to the many recommendations that have been and are being made in relation to the coronavirus pandemic, but it applies beyond the pandemic for anyone who has dietary oxalate issues.  My concerns relate to high doses of vitamin C making existing pain symptoms worse or even causing new pain symptoms in someone who is not aware they may have oxalate problems. This may include joint pain, vulvodynia, bladder pain, painful urination, eye pain, headaches, foot pain, stomach pain, general body pain, deep bone pain etc. All this can manifest as fatigue, irritability, anxiety, low mood and insomnia.

I’ve been promising to blog about this topic for over a month and have gathered enough information for a short book! I figured a good place to start is to share feedback I’ve received so far and ask for your feedback so we can learn and heal, educate and inform others going through this, as well as offer insights to researchers and doctors who are not aware of this issue (and sometimes say “based on biology it’s not possible”).

In the coming weeks, if there is enough interest, I’ll share additional information on mechanisms, what the research says and what the research says is not possible, labs, types of oxalate issues (there are many), the possible causes (there are also many) and long-term impacts beyond pain (for the thyroid, mitochondria, heart and more), the solutions, additional resources and  feedback from experts (of which there are very few – as of now I’ve been reading everything published by Susan Owens, Julie Matthews, Great Plains Labs and research published by kidney specialists).

Until then I’m humbly asking for your feedback. If you have no idea what oxalates are or are taking vitamin C with no issues, then please don’t worry. Things will become clearer as you read this blog and read follow-on blogs. I feel it’s really important to get this initial blog out rather than waiting until I have everything written up perfectly.

I’ve also been hearing feedback from folks who have now recovered from coronavirus or are still recovering, with many reporting lingering pain and fatigue. I am concerned some of that pain may be related to high doses of oral vitamin C or IV (intravenous) vitamin C leading to oxalate issues they may not be aware of.

My request to you – please share your vitamin C oxalate story

This is what I posted on facebook and I’ll simply share it again here: I’m looking for oxalate vitamin C stories to share with folks who don’t believe or are not aware that high dose vitamin C causes issues for those with dietary oxalate issues.

1) What symptoms do you experience?

2) How quickly do you notice symptoms after taking vitamin C?

3) What form of C have you tried? (ascorbic acid or Ester C or whole food sources of C like camu camu/amla/goji berry/acerola cherry/rosehips/kakadu plum/acai berry/ maqui berry or liposomal or something else). Please also share the brand and source of vitamin C if you know

4) How much vitamin C do you use and is this more than you usually take or are you/were you taking this for the first time?

5) How long did it take to get back to normal/no pain/no symptoms once you stopped taking vitamin C?

NOTE – ONLY VITAMIN C: for questions 2) through 5) – in order to be sure the new symptoms are due to vitamin C and not something else – the addition of vitamin C must be the only change made and then stopping vitamin C must also be the only change made. I have clients keep a log too and repeat the “test” if they are not sure. This can be likened to a gluten elimination trial but in reverse. Repeating the “test”also depends on the symptom severity.

6) Does/did anything help to counter the adverse effects (like calcium citrate, vitamin B6, NAC, MSM, biotin, bile support, Epsom salts baths or anything else)?

7) How long have oxalates been an issue for you and are you eating low oxalate? Or is this all new to you?

8) Would you equate the effects of vitamin C to eating high oxalate foods like spinach, raspberries, nuts and seeds, kiwi fruit, figs, turmeric, chocolate, wheat, white potato, soy, beets etc (less severe/same symptoms/more severe)?

I’m also adding these new questions based on some of the research I’ve been doing:

9) Are you aware of any kidney issues and if you get regular blood work done do you track and take note of your estimated Glomerular Filtration Rate (eGFR)?  What have you observed in terms of values? (In case eGFR is new to you it measures how well your kidneys filter the wastes from your blood and is the best overall measure of kidney function. It helps determine if you have any kidney damage.)  Have you ever been told you have kidney issues and have other kidney lab markers out of range?

10) What are your results on the Great Plains Lab organic acids test (OAT) for the following: Oxalic acid, Glycolic acid (glycolate), Glyceric acid (glycerate), Arabinose (a yeast/candida marker) Ascorbic acid (ascorbate, vitamin C), Pyridoxic acid (marker of vitamin B6 status), Furandicarboxylic acid and hydroxy-methylfuroic acid (markers for fungi such as Aspergillus), and markers of bacterial imbalance?

11) Do you have pyroluria (based on a urine test) or have more than 15 symptoms from the the pyroluria questionnaire and/or are susceptible to low vitamin B6 (poor dream recall and/or nightmares) and low zinc (and therefore high copper)?

12) How do you score on symptoms of low serotonin, low GABA, low endorphins and low catecholamines? (here is that questionnaire). Is your anxiety, low mood, cravings or sleep worse when you are dealing with your other oxalate symptoms/pain?

13) Do you have any genetic markers that indicate a susceptibility for oxalate issues?

14) Do you have celiac disease, gluten sensitivity, leaky gut, liver issues, gall stones, no gallbladder, poor bile production, fat malabsorption, mold toxicity issues, low pancreatic enzymes, candida, high iron/ferritin?

15) What are your results on a mold toxicity test such as the Great Plains MycoTOX profile? and/or do you live in a moldy home/worked in a moldy environment or have in the recent past?

16) What are you results on a stool test (and which stool test)?

17) Do you have high mercury, high lead or high levels of other metals?

18) What is your vitamin D level (now if you happen to know it and/or typical levels in the past) and did you start to take extra vitamin D during this pandemic too? If you are taking extra vitamin D how much extra? And does your vitamin D supplement also contain vitamin K1 and vitamin K2?

19) Do you have any other out-of-range (functional levels) markers on blood work or other lab tests?

I will come back and add references and the rationale for posing these questions.

Also, feel free to comment with a nickname to keep your health information private.

Josefin’s story: painful “fat tissue” around elbows, knees and hips, and an irritated bladder

I share some of the Facebook feedback below, but first, here are Josefin’s comments on my coronavirus blog. Josefin thanked me for not ignoring the oxalate problems that might come with higher doses of vitamin C, saying she has “experienced them first-hand and it is not something to take lightly.”

I asked her to share what happens when she eats medium and high oxalate foods (like spinach, nuts, kiwi fruit, chocolate etc). She shared this:

I gradually decreased my oxalate content in food as recommended in the TLO-group. During that year I experienced periods with a lot of the typical dumping-signs like sandy stools, pain in body and especially in joints and muscles, sand in eyes, bladder pain, peeing a lot, cravings for oxalate foods and a temporary relief in the dumping symptoms when I ate some higher oxalate foods.

I also realized that the painful “fat tissue” that I had all over the body (but mainly around elbows, knees and hips) for 10 years was really deposited oxalates with mostly fluid around it, since I lost it more and more while I dumped and had more pain there also when I dumped. Now the deposits are all gone.

I did want to know if the adverse symptoms she experienced with vitamin C were the same as when eating foods high in oxalates, and she confirmed they were:

Many of the symptoms of dumping were the same as I had previously experienced a few days to weeks after trying to do bowel flushes with vitamin C.

Josefin has been on a low oxalate diet for 3 years and has found the most vitamin C she can tolerate is 200-250mg of vitamin C per day. More about that in her own words:

Now after being on a low oxalate diet for 3 years (carnivore the last year) I have tried taking vitamin C very many times and come to the conclusion that about 200-250 mg per day is what I can take. If I take more I will get a gradual increase of that painful fat-tissue that will start after a few days to weeks depending on how much vitamin C I take. I will also get more of a flu feeling and irritated bladder.

When I stop taking the vitamin C I will within a day or two get all my typical dumping symptoms and they will continue for days to weeks depending on how much I have taken. Symptoms severity also depends on how much I have been taking.

It turns out she gets similar reactions with various forms of vitamin C: “ascorbic acid, calcium ascorbate, multimineral buffered ascorbate and also liposomal vitamin C from Quicksilver Scientific”.

Syd’s story: cystitis, along with a crashed brain

Syd shared this on the Facebook post:

I get symptoms from taking high dose Vitamin C within about 45 minutes. It shows up as cystitis, mostly, along with a crashed brain.

She did confirm that when taking vitamin C (possibly the ascorbic acid form) the symptoms mimic her symptoms when eating high oxalate foods. She also wants to try liposomal vitamin C and camu camu to figure out if she gets the same reactions:

I have the very same response to high oxalate foods. I used to think it was a bladder infection, but I tested four times and every time the test was negative. I’m having a response at the moment. I (stupidly) started eating protein bars that have nuts in them and after eating about four of them across several days, I have the cystitis symptoms.

I’m staring at some liposomal Vit C in the fridge that I’ve been wanting to try at a low dose. Same with some camu camu. I need the cystitis symptoms to abate first.

Virginia, Cathi and Melissa and their pain stories

Virginia also offered feedback on Facebook on her experiences with vitamin C, and again they are similar to when she eats high oxalate foods:

I took a pack of Vit C 1000mg (ascorbic acid) at night last week, next morning I noticed oxalate dumping. Took calcium citrate and it was gone within a day and yes the reaction is similar to eating high oxalate foods

On another Facebook thread my question got Cathi wondering if vitamin C was a factor in her worsening arthritis:

Hmmmmmm this has me thinking. I started Vitamin C crystals 1000mg a day – small spoonful in water. It is sour and not awful. Then, a couple of months ago the arthritis deposits in my right hand fingers got much worse and my right wrist has given me so much grief I have had to reduce my yoga. And I got a weird cyst or something on the inside of my right wrist. I wonder…. Gonna stop it and see if it makes a difference!!! Thank you as I was totally stumped and I hope this is the answer!!!!

On this same thread, Melissa shared that noticed severe joint and muscle pain within 2 or 3 days of starting vitamin C:

When the COVID stuff started, I started taking vitamin C as a preventative measure to keep my immune system strong. Within two or three days, I had system joint and muscle pain everywhere. I could hardly move! I stopped the vitamin C and it cleared up in 3 or 4 days. I’ve never had kidney stones, but my brother has, so maybe it’s a genetic predisposition? I do have a history of on & off systemic joint pain since my early 20’s.

I never thought I had oxalate issues but now I’m wondering if it might be related to my random systemic joint pain. 

I was taking between 1,000 to 3,000 mg per day. The label says Solaray timed release vitamin c (ascorbic acid), acerola cherry and rose hips.

Thanks to these folks, everyone who has already contributed on other blogs, all the Facebook feedback (and to you if you provide feedback today).

My hesitation – I don’t have all the answers and we are in the midst of a pandemic where vitamin C is so important

I planned to include this in part 2 but I’m adding this section now because a few hours after publication there are already so many comments and questions. I did hesitate about publishing this blog when I don’t have all the answers and because we’re in the midst of a pandemic where vitamin C has been shown to be very important.

There is plenty of research on the benefits of vitamin C and it’s widely used with much success during serious illness and for sepsis. This paper, An Update on Current Therapeutic Drugs Treating COVID-19, published just last month, discusses vitamin C (ascorbic acid) as a supporting agent, playing a role as a potent antioxidant, with benefits for immune health and as an antiviral against flu viruses.

It also discusses an IV vitamin C coronavirus trial and high dosages currently being used in various hospitals for this virus. The authors do also say “no major side effects” which is what we are typically told about vitamin C.

The Orthomolecular Medicine News Service have issued a number of valuable press releases on vitamin C specific to coronavirus but they are steadfast in their conviction that there are no issues with vitamin C, saying it doesn’t cause kidney stones.

For the majority (I think) there will be no major side-effects but for those with oxalate issues high doses of vitamin C are clearly problematic.

One caveat is that there may be a place for short-term high-dose use during a healing crisis, even for someone with dietary oxalate issues. Unfortunately I don’t have an answer for this aspect yet and I’m hoping a vitamin C expert will contribute to the discussion or I’ll discover some research about this.

And let’s not forget this study published in 1994, The clinical effects of vitamin C supplementation in elderly hospitalised patients with acute respiratory infections, where 200mg of supplemental vitamin C per day resulted in an 80% decrease in deaths among severely ill, hospitalized respiratory disease patients.

This topic is near and dear to my heart and folks have oxalate issues now so I decided to go ahead and publish this information. I’m looking for a solution for my community who are already aware they have oxalate issues (many of you have already reached out to me so thank you) and for myself too. I’ll share details of my oxalate story (my pain is in my feet and my eyes) and my vitamin C experiment in a future blog (I used food based vitamin C and 100-200mg/day and it didn’t go well).

As I mentioned above, I’m also concerned there are many people who don’t know they have oxalate issues and may end up with issues because of all the well-meaning vitamin C advice that is being shared during this pandemic.

I may have bitten off more than I can handle with this topic – I’m learning voraciously and it’s like drinking from a fire-hose! But I’m doing what I often do … I learn by teaching and asking for your feedback and questions, and I’m open about the fact that I’m not an expert and don’t have all the answers.

**** Some cautions *****
Please discuss your situation with your doctor and other health practitioners before stopping or reducing vitamin C based on what you’re reading here.

If you are completely new to the topic of oxalates, this is sound advice from Susan Owens on getting started: “work your way gradually into a completely low oxalate diet.” You can learn more on getting started here. Susan runs the Trying Low Oxalate Group (TLO) on facebook and they are extremely helpful.  I will be sharing additional resources/studies/practitioner feedback etc. but this will get you started.

A reminder that pain can have many root causes other than dietary oxalate issues (or in addition to oxalate issues): gluten issues, nightshades, low GABA, low serotonin, low endorphins, Lyme disease (bartonella can cause foot pain), fibromyalgia, low B12, heavy metals, mold toxicity, autoimmune conditions etc.

******************

Feel free to comment below – share your feedback and ask your questions. And do let me know if you’re interested in learning more about this topic and additional blog posts.

If you’re a practitioner who works with individuals with dietary oxalate issues I’d love to hear from you too.

When using GABA for anxiety does tolerance increase and which amino acid to use for a low mood?

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gaba and tolerence

Today I’m sharing some great questions I’ve received about GABA and serotonin support for anxiety and low mood, and my feedback to give you some ideas on what to look for as you use the amino acids for your own issues (or with clients/patients if you’re a practitioner).

I cover possible reasons for ongoing low GABA levels, long-term use of the amino acids, low mood associated with menopause, problems with mainly sugar- and gluten-free, the role of the adrenals and thyroid, the amino acids I’d start with for low mood, how lithium orotate may help, how to know if collagen is causing a low mood and making you more anxious, and some resources for you.

GABA tolerance has increased

Gaba has been a lifesaver for my anxiety! I also use taurine sometimes for anxiety too, and that has helped too. Right now, I take 1000 mg [of taurine]. As for GABA (I now take 1000 mg of that also) I have noticed that my tolerance for it has increased.

Here is my feedback: I’m really pleased GABA and taurine are helping ease your anxiety. I have not seen tolerance to be a factor with my clients using GABA and I’m not aware of any research on this topic. I would look into what could be depleting GABA at a faster rate so you seem to need more and more.

This could be caused by:

  • increased stress which lowers zinc and increases cortisol
  • poor gut health and dysbiosis (there is a bacteria in the gut that may consume GABA – it’s called gabavorous)
  • low zinc and low B6 (which are needed to make GABA and other neurotransmitters)
  • toxin exposure (we’re now seeing that GABA has a protective effect – this blog covers have GABA is protective of the thyroid after fluoride exposure)
  • thyroid problems (the amino acids are less effective in this instance)

Keep in mind that long-term use of the amino acids is not the plan. Once the diet is addressed and the other underlying biochemistry, nutrient deficiencies, toxins etc. are addressed they should no longer be needed. At most, an occasional “top-up” may be needed.

Low mood associated with menopause

Which amino acids would you recommend for low mood associated with menopause? No panic attacks but a crashing low mood for 24hrs or more before slight recovery, a few easy days and then the cycle begins again. Diet is mainly sugar- and gluten-free. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thank you

Here is my feedback: When I hear “diet is mainly sugar- and gluten-free” with mood swings I always look into gluten exposure and blood sugar dips. Keeping a food mood log is an easy first step to see if the low mood is tied to what is being eaten and when.

I would recommend the complete removal of gluten and sugar. Gluten can trigger depression, anxiety, OCD and lead to many psychiatric symptoms. Blood sugar swings can cause both depression and anxiety. The amino acids make it easy to quite sugar and gluten – no willpower required and no feelings of deprivation. Do the questionnaire and do a trial of the amino acids that apply. Based on the above symptoms I’d suspect tryptophan and tyrosine may help and are always a good first step while everything else is being figured out.

I would also look at adrenal function as they take up the slack in menopause and rule out Hashimoto’s thyroiditis and Graves (as you can get mood swings with both as the thyroid levels shift).

Low lithium can also cause mood swings too and lithium orotate can help to keep an even mood, allowing the amino acids to be more effective.

Finally, I’d want to know if collagen, gelatin or bone broths have recently been added to your diet and are being consumed in an on-an-off pattern that correlates with the low mood. Certain susceptible individuals find that it lowers serotonin and increases depression and anxiety, and causes insomnia.

Next steps are a full workup looking at sex hormones, low zinc, low B6, low magnesium, the gut, EMFs, sleep and other dietary factors like salicylates, histamine, glutamates etc. We look at all the possible 60+ nutritional and biochemical root causes and address them or rule them out.

It’s also important to have a good support system in place for those very low days – friends and family members, being part of a community and even keeping a mental health support line number close at hand.

And of course, I always say this: get out in nature, get some exercise, hug someone and have a good laugh.

Resources for you

  • My book The Antianxiety Food Solution (my Amazon affiliate link) has an entire chapter on the amino acids GABA, tryptophan, tyrosine, and DPA (and how to use them), a chapter on blood sugar balancing and glutamine and a chapter on gluten issues (and much more). Read it and become a savvy health-advocate for yourself. Become someone who is well-informed about the amino acids, the precautions and nuances, and all the nutritional approaches for anxiety-relief. Share a copy with your doctor and point out the references.
  • If figuring it out alone or reading my book feels overwhelming to you, or you’re afraid to use the amino acids on your own, my home-study Amazing Aminos for Anxiety program walks you through a step-by step approach on how to figure out which symptoms are tied to which neurotransmitter deficiency, and how to trial each respective amino acid. Stay tuned for a special upcoming launch with live Q and A calls so you can get your questions answered. (If you have recently purchased the homestudy ONLY version we will be contacting you to invite you to participate.)
  • Here is a blog to read if you’re new to GABA: GABA for the physical-tension and stiff-and-tense-muscles type of anxiety
  • Here is a blog to read if you’re new to tryptophan: Tryptophan for the worry-in-your-head and ruminating type of anxiety (it’s a blog about low serotonin anxiety but applies to low-serotonin low mood too)
  • Here is a blog to read if you’re new to tyrosine: Tyrosine for focus, motivation, energy, a good mood and possibly even anxiety
  • You can find the amino acids in my supplement store here.

Can you relate to either of these questions? And are you good at playing a detective to figure out why something may not be working as expected?

What has worked for your anxiety and/or low moods?

Feel free to post questions in the comments too.

And let me know if you’re interested in the homestudy program with live Q and A calls. (If you have recently purchased the homestudy ONLY version we will be contacting you to invite you to participate.)

MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy for Treating Chronic PTSD: Why I feel we can do better and the role of nutrition and amino acids like GABA

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You may be familiar with MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine), also known as “ecstasy”, because of its reputation as a party drug. And you have likely seen some of the media reports on the new research and growing support for MDMA-Assisted psychotherapy for treating chronic PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder). Due to adverse effects I’d like to share my concerns about this research and treatment and why I feel we can do better – by addressing nutrition and using amino acids like GABA and others.

In a recent press release, Colorado Study Shows Lasting Benefits of MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy for Treating Chronic PTSD, the non-profit organization, Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) reports these study results:

28 participants found that one month after their second day-long experimental session, 42.9% in the active-dose (100 mg and 125 mg) MDMA groups did not qualify for a diagnosis of PTSD, compared to 33.3% in the low-dose MDMA (40 mg active placebo) control group.

The results were even more notable 12 months after the third active-dose experimental session, which found that one year following treatment with MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, 76% of participants no longer had PTSD.

It is the largest U.S. FDA-regulated double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for the treatment of chronic PTSD and the results are impressive: 76% of the study participants no longer had PTSD after a year and 3 treatment sessions. I’m really happy for the participants BUT I believe we can do better because there are adverse reactions to this treatment and there are other safer approaches for recovery.

This comment about an acceptable risk profile and adverse reactions concerns me (and I suspect it concerns you too):

The study replicated previous research showing an acceptable risk profile for MDMA, with the most frequently reported adverse reactions during experimental sessions being anxiety, jaw clenching, headache, muscle tension, dizziness, fatigue, and low mood.

Adverse reactions one week following treatment included insomnia, low mood, irritability, and ruminations. Temporary elevations in pulse, blood pressure, and temperature were also recorded during MDMA sessions, and did not require medical intervention.

A common theme we see in the research on psychedelics is how effective it is for PTSD that doesn’t respond to therapy or medications. This paper states:

There is an immense need for innovative treatment options that improve outcomes, especially for PTSD refractory to psychotherapy and/or pharmacotherapies

I agree there is an immense need for successful treatment approaches, but jumping to MDMA from psychotherapy and/or psychiatric medications is skipping out the entire nutritional and biochemical step which is SO powerful and doesn’t have the above adverse effects. I’m concerned too many who have not seen benefits from therapy or medications are seeing MDMA as THE solution and are going to be harmed even further.

This paper, The Potential Dangers of Using MDMA for Psychotherapy, the author is concerned about the fact that “acute MDMA can stimulate the release of difficult feelings and memories, which may be distressing” and also the negative moods that occur after MDMA treatment:

This period of negative cognitions may be counter-productive, especially in psychiatrically vulnerable clients, for instance those with predispositions to anxiety, depression, or psychosis. For example, it could increase the likelihood of suicide in those individuals with strong post-recovery feelings of depression.

Because of this, I wholeheartedly agree with the author’s position:

it will always be far safer to undertake psychotherapy without using co-drugs. In selected cases MDMA might provide an initial boost, but it also has far too many potentially damaging effects for safe general usage.

In addition to psychotherapy, there are also so many nutritional and biochemical factors we can consider when it comes to PTSD. These don’t have any of the above damaging effects seen with MDMA. Here are a few to consider:

I feel it is these above approaches and others like this that we need to be using to address PTSD, rather than subjecting individuals who are already suffering to treatments that have adverse reactions AND are not addressing underlying nutritional deficiencies of low GABA, low serotonin, out of balance endocannabinoid system and overall health, to name a few of many possible underlying biochemical factors.

If this treatment approach is approved, I would hope that all the adverse effects and dangers are clearly explained and I’d also like there to be informed consent before it is used – so individuals know exactly what they are getting into. Hopefully, by the time it is approved, nutritional psychiatry will be more accepted.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on this research and treatment approach. Is it something you have considered or would possibly consider in the future – you personally or with patients?

Or do you have similar concerns that I have?

Have you already tried MDMA recreationally (possibly for therapeutic reasons) and what were your experiences like?