If you have trouble sleeping through the night (or even have anxiety or panic attacks), finding the nutritional/biochemical root causes and addressing them is going to provide relief but it’s not always straightforward to find your root cause or causes (there are often more than one). Also, what works for you today may not work for you in 2 years time and may not work for your friend who has similar symptoms. You have to be a detective yourself and/or work with a health professional who can put all the puzzle pieces together.
I recently read a Facebook comment where someone was really frustrated about all the trial and error work that may be involved:
I’m just so tired of all this trial and error work trying to figure out why I’m anxious and depressed can’t sleep more than 4 hours a night. It’s been going on way too long I just want answers and a solution to all this. Enough already!
While I feel for this woman, I do acknowledge that it can sometimes be challenging to put all the puzzle pieces together. Other times we are able to figure things out very quickly. I’d like to share some feedback from Lorraine on the tryptophan-PMS-anxiety blog to illustrate how one small change made a big difference for her and it was a matter of trial and error.
Lorraine shares her great results with this Tryptophan Complete tweak for her insomnia:
Trudy, after listening to your talks about Lidtke Tryptophan I decided to give the Tryptophan Complete a try. I’ve taken one capsule each on the last two nights instead of two of the Tryptophan 500mg caps. Both nights I slept straight through all night and had a hard time waking up in the morning. I’ve struggled with insomnia for many, many years. The 500mg Lidtke Tryptophan supplements were helping but I was still waking up during the night. For me to sleep all night is almost miraculous.
I’ve been also taking Progesterone (low on testing), Magnesium, L-Theanine and Melatonin.
I recently added phosphatidylserine, and Holy Basil because saliva testing showed high cortisol at bedtime and off the charts high in the morning. I’m hoping to start eliminating some of those other supplements now that I’m sleeping so well.
I want to thank you for the Anxiety Summits and your book and updates on Facebook and newsletters. I have learned so much from you!
I’ve blogged about which product to use for boosting serotonin: Tryptophan 500mg or Tryptophan Complete (by Lidtke)?. I share this
- I like to have my clients do a trial of the amino acidsso they can find the ideal dose for their needs and right now I still feel this would still be the best approach to take – using 500mg tryptophan. Once you have figured out you do well with tryptophan-only product and have your dose, then consider reducing it slightly after about 2-3 weeks and adding in additional Tryptophan Complete.
- The other option is this: if you don’t get the expected results with Tryptophan 500mg, then try the Tryptophan Complete. You may need the other ingredients for it to work well for you.
Lorraine chose to do the latter – switching to Tryptophan Complete – since she didn’t get ideal results with Tryptophan 500mg and it worked for her. I will add that even though she slept straight through all night, I don’t like that she had a hard time waking up in the morning and when that happens, I recommend less tryptophan. It’s very possible that the ideal combination would be 1 x Tryptophan 500mg and 1 x Tryptophan Complete (my first suggestion).
Here is my quick commentary on the other products she’s using for her insomnia:
- Progesterone and theanine: Testing progesterone levels are important before using progesterone. Both theanine and GABA support GABA production and when GABA is low, we often see low progesterone. With both low GABA and low progesterone, sleep and anxiety can be worse.
- Magnesium: This mineral is commonly low and is needed to make both serotonin and GABA.
- Melatonin: This is made in the body when there is sufficient serotonin and may not be needed long-term once she has good levels of serotonin (which the tryptophan product/s are helping her make).
- Phosphatidylserine and holy basil: High cortisol is a common root cause of both insomnia and anxiety and saliva testing is an excellent way to confirm this. Phosphatidylserine can be used to lower high cortisol although I have found even better results with a phosphorylated serine product called Seriphos. Holy basil or tulsi is an adaptogenic herbal product that provides adrenal support helping with sleep problems and easing anxiety and stress.
In Lorraine’s case, her insomnia was caused by low serotonin (hence the need for tryptophan, melatonin and magnesium), low GABA/low progesterone (hence the need for progesterone, theanine and magnesium) and high cortisol (hence the need for phosphatidylserine and holy basil).
She shares she’s hoping to start eliminating some of these other supplements now that she’s sleeping so well. So, this would be another trial and error approach, stopping and/or reducing one at a time and seeing how she does. Or she may well find she needs to continue with everything for some time.
As you can see, for Lorraine it was a matter of trial and error to find her solution, but it was well worth it to get the “miraculous results” she experienced: sleeping though the night for the first time in many years!
Some of these products may work for you but it’s going to be a matter of trial and error to find your root cause/s and solution.
In case they are relevant for you, these products mentioned in this blog can all be found in my online Fullscript store:
- Lidtke 500mg Tryptophan (with additional information here)
- Lidtke Tryptophan Complete (with additional information here)
- Magnesium
- Melatonin (with additional information here)
- Holy basil /tulsi (with additional information here)
- Interplexus Seriphos (with additional information here)
I’d love to hear how you’ve used a trial and error approach either on your own or with the help of your practitioner to find the nutritional solution for your insomnia and/or anxiety?
If you’re a practitioner, please do share an example of how you’ve used this approach with a client or patient.
If you’ve had frustrations with this trial and error approach, please share them too.
Feel free to post your questions here too.
What does it mean when the DUTCH test says I have both high dopamine and serotonin? I really can’t mess with hormones too much since I have breast cancer and have been taken off all progesterone and estradiol, etc. I am 74 and have always had trouble sleeeping through the night but now its even worse; I go to sleep ok, but wake at 2 and can’t go back to sleep.
I have only one adrenal gland. On the DUTCH, I was within range for waking and afternoon cortisol, within range for waking cortisone, above range for cortisone, above range for 24 hour free cortisol and cortisone, and below range for tetrahydrocortisol a, within range for b; low end of range for tetrahydrocortisone b, and within range for metabolized cortisol.
I can’t seem to find a doc who is knowledgeable about this test; but I at least would like to know why both seratonin and dopamine are high
Many thanks for any insights
Helen
Your best bet is to discuss this with the doctor who ordered the test. They should be able to do a consult with the company if they have questions.
I’m curious how you score on the amino acid questionnaire i.e what symptoms do you have? https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/amino-acids-mood-questionnaire-from-the-antianxiety-food-solution/
I would also use this and trials of the amino acids ahead of organic acid markers of serotonin (5HIAA) and dopamine (HVA/VMA) which are indirect markers and don’t always reflect what is going on.
Good grief, I have used practically the same doses of the same things, using research daily over about ten years and trial and error! (Here we have no competent doctors and as for alternative therapies and blood testing for, well, anything much, we have no chance!). It is wonderful when you can at last sleep, it truly is!
Good luck to everyone with the same problems – don’t give up, I suffered from lack of sleep for over 40 years, firstly caused by undiagnosed hypothyroid, then with all the problems that can cause (it affects all the major organs and even causes osteoporosis if left for decades – and if your doctors happy dosing of you with 160 tabs of dihydrocodeine a month for nearly three decades causes not addiction but a gall bladder full of stones – removal of the gallbladder exacerbates IBS and caused accelerated osteoporosis etc).
Jenny
Glad to hear you have found your root causes and a solution with a trial and error approach. Thanks for the words of encouragement for other blog readers.
I live in Canada where Tryptophan is a prescription drug. I have been taking 3000mg of L-Tryptophan for close to 20 years.I don’t know the brand. On the pill it says “Alti-Tryp”. It helps with sleeping most of the time, however I can get a problem with an upset stomach, sometimes after I have already gone to sleep. I wake up suddenly and my heart is pounding and I feel very nauseated and can have pain in my stomach and feel like I am going to vomit. I used to think I was having an anxiety attack, but then realized it was from the medication. I eat half a banana when I take the pills and sometimes that is fine, but other times it seems like it is not enough. I really don’t want to be eating a significant amount of carbs at 11 pm before bed. I have tried reducing to 2000 mg, but I don’t sleep as well. Any suggestions? Do you know anything about using Hemp oil for insomnia. Could that be taken with a reduced amount of Tryptophan?
Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!
Cathie
I wasn’t aware that tryptophan was also available by prescription in Canada. This may be the product? “Each white, oval-shaped, smooth film-coated tablet, embossed “ALTI-TRYP 1 g” on one side, contains L-tryptophan 1 g. Nonmedicinal ingredients: acetylated monoglyceride, calcium phosphate, carnauba wax, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, magnesium stearate, methylcellulose, opaspray white, povidone, sodium croscarmellose, titanium dioxide, and wax solution (white wax and carnauba wax).” https://chealth.canoe.com/drug/getdrug/ratio-tryptophan
As with anything it’s always important to know the brand and fillers as this could be a clue to the digestive and other issues. I write about titanium dioxide here https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/titanium-dioxide-gut-damage-anxiety-cancer/
I only recommend a tryptophan-only product (Lidtke is the brand I use with clients https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/tryptophan-500mg-or-tryptophan-complete-lidtke/). I would also question the need for tryptophan for 20 years. Ideally once diet (no gluten, caffeine, sugar), gut health, blood sugar, adrenals, toxins, other nutritional deficiencies etc are addressed it shouldn’t be needed long term.
Thanks for your reply, Trudy. The tryptophan you are talking about would probably not be available here, in Canada. Tryptophan is only available by prescription. My insomnia started when menopause hit at age 46, and I also experienced severe depression/anxiety. Tryptophan was the only thing that seemed to help (after a few years of trying other things), although it doesn’t work all the time. I was taking anti-depressants for eight years. Have been off them for 15 years now but still need the tryptophan for sleeping. I have not tried changing my diet that much. Gluten free is not appealing to me. I take a lot of supplements- omega 3, B’s, magnesium, chromium, vitamin D, C, K2, Boron etc. I don’t have much caffeine, and not tons of sugar, but I do eat it.
Thanks!
L-Tryptophan and 5-HTP are both widely available in health food stores in Canada.
New Roots Herbal is a good reasonably priced brand.
Susan – thanks for sharing this brand and the information about Health Canada and Lidtke
Lidtke ships to Canada. Also available through VitaCost and Swansons Vitamins online. They have an arrangement with Health Canada to pre-approve and shipments come through without delay.
Thanks Susan. I will have to check into this.
I am in Canada and Vitacost will not ship “professional lines” to Canada. I am not allowed to order anything by Lidtke, Pure Encapsulations, Genestra, Douglas Labs, etc.
I have been buying food and supplements from Vitacost for 15 years, but it is simply impossible to purchase from a long list of what they categorize as “professional brands”.
I don’t know why because it is not a restriction at iHerb.com. However, iHerb (who I do order some things from) do not have nearly the variety Vitacost does. They do not carry Lidtke at all.
Vitacost allows me to put anything I want in my cart but when I go to checkout, I get an error message about having items in my cart that cannot be exported to me country.
Hi Trudy, have you ever heard of Seriphos causing increased daytime anxiety? It’s really helping my sleep but I have increased anxiety during the day. Any idea why this may be happening? Will it subside with longer use? My functional doctor put me on a B Complex I did not handle well – I believe it was the methylfolate because I handle stand alone methylated b12 just fine, but could Seriphos be causing overmethylation? All the benefits I have gotten from Tryptophan (decrease in OCD) seem to have disappeared since starting Seriphos – but it’s really helped my sleep which I hate to give up! Any insight in to this would be greatly appreciated!
Maura
I have had one client find the need to do only 1 Seriphos instead of 3 due to increased mild anxiety. Other options to lower high cortisol could be considered – lactium, herbal adaptogens, Relora https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/magnolia-officinalis-phellodendron-amurense-relora-cortisol-stress-anxiety/ and/or increasing the tryptophan
Trudy,
Just “found” you and all of your amazing information! Doing the Amazing Aminos course now, glad for this blog reply regarding options to Seriphos. Saliva cortisol test shows high morning cortisol, sleep is a problem, Seriphos helped but my heart rate seemed to go up a few days after taking it. Stopped, gave it a week, tried again, something similar. Not 100% sure it’s the cause (could be thyroid hormone med metabolism changing due to lowering cortisol), but stopped taking it to be safe. Great to have some options!
Sydney
This is not a adverse effect I’ve heard about but it’s a good idea to try something a few times to be sure. Lactium is another option for lowering high cortisol
I have recently developed middle of the night insomnia after sleeping soundly until age 60. At first, I suspected an EMF problem, since the problem developed about 6 months after moving to a new house, and turning off the power to the back of the house at night does help somewhat. The only abnormal test result was high evening and AM cortisol (salivary). I take loads of supplements (food source etc) and have done for years since recovering from a very serious viral infection 30 years ago. I tend to get low vitamin A, D, and iodine as well as all the other immune nutrients if I don’t supplement. I take everything in L-Tryptophan Complete already with the exception of additional L-Tryptophan. I have stopped caffeine entirely and that helped somewhat but left me feeling very depressed and demotivated. My amino acid mood questionnaire shows only low dopamine, and yes, I have your excellent book Trudy. Extra L-Tyrosine does reduce coffee craving. Coffee was my friend during menopause for sure. Any comments would be much appreciated. It really does suck not to sleep well.
Susan
For insomnia caused by high cortisol I have found Seriphos to be the best product https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/seriphos-original-formula-anxiety-insomnia-cortisol/
Thank you Trudy. I haven’t tried Phosphatidylserine after a nutritionist told me it can “burn out your neurons” .. whatever that means! On your advice, I’ll give it a go.
I accidentally found a solution to middle of the night insomnia after taking about 16 g MAP (Master Amino Pattern) at bedtime last week. Another nutritionist told me to increase my protein to 90 g daily and I thought to use the MAP as a supplement. For anyone who doesn’t know, MAP (also called SON formula) is a balanced formula of 8 essential amino acids in a format that is 98% absorbed (very unusual product). Well, this dose of MAP at bedtime caused me to sleep through the night beautifully and some tendonitis symptoms also disappeared. It’s quite unexpected and I am wondering about the mechanism. So far, it has been 7 days and the formula continues to work.
Susan
Thanks for sharing about MAP/SON formula and your sleep – great news. I don’t see anything about which amino acids or which inactive ingredients but wonder if it’s a free-form amino acid blend which is more digestible than eating protein and provides raw material for making neurotransmitters and hormones. Does the bottle share ingredients and type of capsule (gelatin or vegetarian)? I’d want to check it does contain tryptophan as some blends don’t and that opens another whole can of worms in terms of lowering serotonin in some folks
Oh, and yes, I did restart the coffee at one cup a day in the morning. The MAP continues to work so it wasn’t the coffee it would seem.
Yes, that’s right Trudy .. these are free-form amino acids without any other ingredients or capsule. It is an expensive product to produce because it requires specialized equipment. As SON formula, it is sold as a prescription protein supplement for those with kidney disease. At 98% absorption there is very little nitrogen waste. The proportions were developed from research starting with those found in chicken egg. Altering the proportions reduces absorption.
Formula is:
L-leucine 189.6 mg
L-lysine 172.4 mg
L-valine 160.0 mg
L-isoleucine 143.2 mg
L-phenylalanine 124.5 mg
L-threonine 107.3 mg
L-methionine 67.5 mg
L-tryptophan 35.5 mg
Hi Trudy
I’m desperate for something to help my severe depression and anxiety, I’m currently taking 20mg of Paxil and 25mg x 3 pregabalin which are both horrible drugs and don’t help. I started taking 500mg Lidtke tryptophan at night (over 6 hrs after Paxil dose) I felt a bit wired and couldn’t sleep and felt anxiety worse. I’ve only been taking a week should I stop? I suppose tryptophan not for everyone unfortunately
Tracy
I don’t have clients push through when something isn’t working
What test determines, or rules out, the ROOT CAUSE?
If taking theses supplements indefinitely without locating the ROOT CAUSE, are not we still managing a condition that hasn’t been found?
Jeanne
The root cause could be low serotonin and this is when tryptophan would help. It could also be gluten issues which is upstream and causing the low serotonin or low iron which is needed to make serotonin. So we start with the aminos to address one root cause quickly and continue to look for other root causes which can sometimes take longer to figure out.
Hi Trudy!
My name is Antoinette and I suffered with Myathenia Gravis for years prior to thymectomy. I once went to a practitioner who prescribed zinc, B6 and L-Trytophan. It was miraculous and provided more movement and muscle improvement. Unfortunately, they took tryptophan off the market and now that I am in menopause I have serious sleeping problems, high cortisol with fat around stomach and feeling a little challenged these days. My practitioner does not know anything about amino acids . Where should I start?
Antoinette
I love hearing that zinc, B6 and L-Trytophan was “miraculous and provided more movement and muscle improvement.” I don’t know much about Myasthenia Gravis but this paper states “Many authors suggest that pharmacologically induced changes in Ach [acetylcholine] activity could lead to the development of a model of depression by influencing other transmitter systems (e.g., GABA, serotonin, dopamine, or norepinephrine).” so this makes sense https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/jnp.12.4.514
I’d suggest sharing that zinc, B6 and L-Trytophan has helped you in the past and educating yourself and your practitioner about the amino acids. My book “The Antianxiety Food Solution” is a great resource. For sleep issues high cortisol also needs to be addressed. I like Seriphos for this https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/seriphos-original-formula-anxiety-insomnia-cortisol/
Hi Trudy, I have been doing a long taper off Lexapro and I am currently stuck on 4mg. I tried to lower a few weeks ago to 3mg and had horrendous insomnia which brought back my anxiety. I have ordered Seriphos and looking at buying L’Trytophan too but I am hoping to start trying for baby number 2 in around October. If I successfully wean off the remainder of my Lexapro with the help of the supplements will I have to stay on the supplements long term? I am not sure that the natural supplements are safe during pregnancy. Thank you very much.
Nicole
I have my clients get nutritionally stable BEFORE starting any medication taper (with their doctor’s approval of course) – real food, no gluten, no caffeine, no sugar, quality animal protein, eating for blood sugar control and we address low serotonin, low GABA, low melatonin, high cortisol etc first. All this is also key before falling pregnant as the amino acids have not been tested in pregnancy.
Thanks so much for your response Trudy. I have been on a healthy paleo diet for the last 3 – 4 months with plenty good fats so I feel like my blood sugar levels are under control. I do have PCOS though. As mentioned, I have ordered Interplexus Seriphos which I will try out once it arrives. I’m currently down to around 3.3mg of Lexapro and I consistently wake up at 3:00am – 4:00am. Do you have any idea what this could indicate?
Nicole
Waking in the night can be related to what I mention above – low serotonin, low GABA, low melatonin, high cortisol, caffeine/coffee – and even parasites/SIBO/candida and EMFs.
Hi, the tryptophan I ordered from Lidtke finally made it here to New Zealand in the mail today. My fiancé is really worried for me to start it as he has read about EMS. Can you please tell me your thoughts and/or link me to some evidence I can use when I talk to him about this.
Thank you so much! (I’ve reached out several places as I need an answer before I get started and I’d like to get started sooner rather than later as my mood has been a bit all over the place lately). Thank you again!
What is EMS? I have been talking Tryptophan for many years. In Canada this requires a prescription, so I can’t request any certain brand.
Cathie
Are you using prescription tryptophan and how long has your doctor prescribed it and for what symptoms? Just so you know tryptophan can be purchased in health stores and via naturopaths/nutritionists in Canada.
EMS is Eosinophilia–myalgia syndrome. Please read my feedback on Malin’s post
Malin
This paper may be helpful: Peak AAA Fatty Acid Homolog Contaminants Present in the Dietary Supplement l-Tryptophan Associated With the Onset of Eosinophilia-Myalgia Syndrome https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29800716/ “The eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS) outbreak that occurred in the USA and elsewhere in 1989 was caused by the ingestion of Showa Denko K.K. (SD) L-tryptophan (L-Trp). “Six compounds” detected in the L-Trp were reported as case-associated contaminants. Recently the final and most statistically significant contaminant, “Peak AAA” was structurally characterized.”…. “The structural similarity of these homologs to case-related contaminants of Spanish Toxic Oil Syndrome (TOS) is discussed.”
Jeffrey Smith writes about the backstory in chapter 4 of his book “Seeds of Deception.”
The EMS outbreak was serious and this is why we both only recommend Lidtke products (although I am now starting to vet other companies). I have not seen any issues with EMS in the 12 years I have been doing this work. My mentor Julia Ross, author of “The Mood Cure”, has not seen any issues for over 20 years. Neither of us have had feedback from colleagues reporting issues either.
I have been using Tryptophan for around 20 years for insomnia. The insomnia began when I was age 46 (I’m 69 now) with a severe major depression/anxiety episode. I took antidepressants for 7 years and then the one I was taking, Serzone, was taken off the market. Others I tried gave me physical anxiety symptoms. So I have done ok without the antidepressants, but if I cut back on the Tryptophan (I take 3000 mg) then I have trouble sleeping. I don’t think Tryptophan is available in Canada without a prescription, but I have coverage for the cost, which is quite expensive, so it works for me. At night I also take magnesium, Bis-Glycinate 200 mg.
hello Trudy! researching my insomnia, i found interesting reports on l ornithine and its positive effects on sleep on some websites and in amazon reviews. I was surprised! did you do any topic about l ornithine? Or could you tell us a little about it? thank you so much