I have concerns with phenibut and I don’t feel anyone should be using it. It is widely used in Russia as a medication for anxiety and it’s only available by prescription in that country. It’s available over-the-counter in the USA, Australia and the UK and it’s very effective for anxiety and insomnia. It’s for this reason that many anxious individuals really love it and practitioners recommend it.
Here is some information about phenibut from this 2001 paper – Phenibut (beta-phenyl-GABA): a tranquilizer and nootropic drug:
Phenibut (beta-phenyl-gamma-aminobutyric acid HCl) is a neuropsychotropic drug that was discovered and introduced into clinical practice in Russia in the 1960s. It has anxiolytic and nootropic (cognition enhancing) effects. It acts as a GABA-mimetic, primarily at GABA(B) and, to some extent, at GABA(A) receptors. It also stimulates dopamine receptors and antagonizes beta-phenethylamine (PEA), a putative endogenous anxiogenic. The psychopharmacological activity of phenibut is similar to that of baclofen, a p-Cl-derivative of phenibut.
Phenibut is widely used in Russia to relieve tension, anxiety, and fear, to improve sleep in psychosomatic or neurotic patients; as well as a pre- or post-operative medication. It is also used in the therapy of disorders characterized by asthenia [abnormal physical weakness or lack of energy] and depression, as well as in post-traumatic stress, stuttering and vestibular disorders.
One of the reasons phenibut seems to work so well is because it is so similar to benzodiazepines. The above paper goes on to state:
Comparison of phenibut with piracetam and diazepam reveals similarities and differences in their pharmacological and clinical effects.
There is research showing that physical dependence can develop, including tolerance and withdrawal, and adverse symptoms can be similar to benzodiazepines: Phenibut Dependence
We present a case of a patient who used phenibut to self-medicate anxiety, insomnia and cravings for alcohol. While phenibut was helpful initially, the patient developed dependence including tolerance, significant withdrawal symptoms within 3-4 h of last use and failure to fulfil his roles at work and at home. He finally sought medical assistance in our addictions clinic. We have gradually, over the course of 9 weeks, substituted phenibut with baclofen, which has similar pharmacological properties, and then successfully tapered the patient off baclofen. This required approximately 10 mg of baclofen for each gram of phenibut.
I talk about my concerns about phenibut and cover the best forms of GABA in my Anxiety Summit season 4 presentation – GABA: Blood Brain Barrier Controversy Concerns, Best Forms and How to Do a Trial for Eliminating Anxiety, and share what other practitioners share:
…practitioners will say well they use it cautiously. They only use it if really needed. And some practitioners will say they pulse. So they’ll have a client or a patient take it for a certain number of days and then stop for a certain number of days.
I just think let’s err on the side of caution and let’s not even go there. Let’s use these other nutrients [like GABA].
Why mess with something when you’ve got something else that can be used. I’ve had practitioners say to me “Well, phenibut works so well. That’s why I use it. GABA doesn’t seem to work as well.” And maybe it’s because they are not doing it sublingually. So if you’ve been using phenibut or you’re a practitioner I’d love to hear from you if you switch your patients or your clients to GABA and have them open up the capsules. Let us know if you’re finding better results with that method rather than having them swallow the GABA capsules.
During this same GABA presentation on the Anxiety Summit I share some of my other concerns about phenibut:
It’s used in high doses for performance enhancement and what really horrified me is that there are these dedicated forums with information on how to taper safely. So there are these forums that talk about phenibut like it’s a drug and tell people how they can safely go this high [on the phenibut] and if they get these [bad] effects, what they need to do and how they can taper. When I read all that I was just horrified.
Why mess with something like phenibut when we’ve got GABA that does work so well when used in the right way (sublingually appears to be most effective) and when trialed to find the ideal targeted dose for your particular needs.
If you’d like a refresher or want to learn more about the following topics, be sure to listen (or re-listen if you tuned in during the summit) to my season 4 Anxiety Summit presentation on GABA:
- more about phenibut
- gabapentin (which also has issues and withdrawal symptoms can to mimic some of the same withdrawal symptoms associated with benzodiazepine and alcohol withdrawal)
- the blood-brain barrier GABA concerns that many people raise (and one of the reasons many practitioners say they like phenibut)
- some possible mechanisms as to how GABA does work to ease anxiety and worry
- good forms of GABA and how best to use GABA
- how to do a GABA trial to find your ideal dose (you can find some of this information here and in my book The Antianxiety Food Solution)
- feedback from people who have used GABA with success (you can also find some of that positive feedback here)
- and what to use if you don’t have access to GABA supplements
Please share your phenibut and GABA experiences so we can all learn.
My name is Sunila and I’ve been receiving your newsletter since you started the Anxiety Summit. I live in Wollongong, which is around 80 kilometers south of Sydney. I’d like to buy some GABA and Tryptophan and since you are currently in Sydney, I was wondering if I could drive up and get some from you. Of course I’m assuming that you have some stock with you at the moment.
Please let me know if this is at all possible as I am flying out to visit my family in Asia on December 1st and I’d really like to take some for my sister. She is suffering from anxiety and she needs to calm down so that she can sleep and eat properly. Otherwise, please let me know if I can get them from somewhere else or you could even recommend a brand that you think is good.
Thanks in advance.
Sunila
I am in Sydney (and we look forward to visiting Woollongong) but I’m afraid don’t carry stock of any of the amino acids since my business is virtual. I have just come across both GABA and tryptophan since my arrival here and am looking into them but right now I can’t confirm they are the same quality as the products I currently use (in terms of mood benefits, gluten-free etc)
You could have her try the Australian products. I’d love to hear if you do and she has success with them. Keep in mind that they are powder and the website recommends much high doses that I do
Body Ripped GABA 100g https://www.vitaminking.com.au/gaba-100g-by-body-ripped
Healthwise tryptophan https://www.vitaminking.com.au/tryptophan-150g-by-healthwise
The products I currently use with clients can be ordered by mail from my supplier Emerson Ecologics https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/amino-acids-pyroluria-supplements/ if you decide to go this route.
Your sister is so fortunate to have a loving sister like you! Have a good trip!
HiTrudy,
Thought I’ll let you know that just last week both my husband and I have tried the “Body Ripped Gaba” .
My husband has been quite stressed and tensed with work issues for a long time now and as for myself I am constanltly hunching my shoulders and feeling them tensed and tight plus I also have Hashimoto and few other issues.
We both don’t sleep very well either but I hardly ever sleep continuously for longer than 20 mins – I wake up at least 15 times a night…
We took a small amount under the tongue around 5 pm and neither of us had any relaxing feeling from it. We tried again around 11 pm before going to bed and both had a completely sleepless night, so much so that around 4 am we took some Stilnox just so that we get a couple of hours sleep. Not sure why that has been the case.
My husband has given up and feels better with just 2 drops of Bachus Flower Essence, while I am still trying with a different Gaba (Stress Relax Pharma Gaba 100 mg) and Jarrow’s 5HTP plus another Melatonin blend – but my sleep is still non existent. Not sure how long I shall continue to persevere or if I need to change some of my supplements. I sometimes have no problem falling a sleep though sometimes that is still a problem , but for the most part I have a problem staying asleep.
Hope this info helps in any way…
Hi Sunila
I’m also in Australia (Sydney) and get all my supplements from iherb
They have very cheap shipping to Australia and typically an order gets here in about a week. You can also pay in Australian dollars.
I have bought this GABA from iherb:
http://au.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-GABA-Brain-Memory-60-Veggie-Caps/2156?rcode=ATA529
Apart from them being cheaper, they have a much larger range of products than you can get in Australia and they also list ALL the ingredients on every supplement. In Australia they won’t list the excipients (fillers etc.) in the supplements so you don’t know what else is in the tablet.
Wonderful informative post Trudy, thank you for bringing this into the light. Have to say though, whilst Phenibut had addictive characteristics when I thoroughly tried and tested it, it worked WONDERS for sleep and anxiety compared to GABA Calm and 750mg plain GABA (both from Source Naturals and both taken sublingually) which had very little effect on me. Having said that, I slept 7 hours right through last night with only some magnesium, B6, B3 and some adaptogens… There is hope! 🙂
Thanks for sharing Drew. The reason phenibut is so popular is that it does work. Would you please share more on this?: “whilst Phenibut had addictive characteristics when I thoroughly tried and tested it”
If I recall correctly you did get some benefits from GABA Calm at one time didn’t you?
Glad to hear you slept through the night last night!
Trudy, yes, the effect I received with the GABA Calm and 750mg GABA (both taken sublingually) was very subtle and inconsistent so I cannot really confirm if it really worked for me or not. Sometimes I’d feel a very slight calming effect and at others nothing at all. I was taking 3 x GABA Calm lozenges.
On the other hand my experience with Phenibut (GABA Wave) was quite extreme. The initial response in the first couple of weeks was great, especially a couple of hours after taking it. The effects were a marked elevation in mood to the point of euphoria, enhanced appreciation for music, improved focus and cognition initially (but that became memory difficulty), marked relief of anxiety, increased motivation, renewed interest in things, being more talkative, a significant calming/relaxation effect, generally a deep and great night’s sleep the night of the morning it is taken.
However, after a few weeks it was the reaction on the following day of taking it that kicked me in the butt, literally. On the following day I began to feel very low, groggy and spaced out, almost like a hangover and then during the following night I began having brutal insomnia – a complete turn around from the night before. A kind of rebound response. I imagine that’s when the tolerance and addiction begins to develop because one craves the next dose to provide the good night’s sleep after the bad sleep on the second night. Other side effects included mood swings, irritability, rebound anxiety, panic, loss of short term memory, total and utter loss of any form of libido and constipation!
It is becoming more and more evident that past emotional and psychological traumas are what’s causing me the majority of my distress and especially with insomnia and anxiety. My diet, lifestyle and self care practices are pretty much 100%. My brain has become ‘warped’ by these traumas and I’m constantly in a state of fight or flight and very easily psychologically stimulated by the smallest thing. I literally cannot go out at night any more to shows, dinner with friends or whatever – I am way too sensitive and it takes me hours, often days to wind down which in turn wrecks my sleep. This has become worse and worse as the years progress… All quite daunting to be honest. Spending time in nature is my temporary saviour. Hopefully 2017 will bring a glimmer of hope in addressing all of this through Neurofeedback/EMDR and naturopathic guidance and assistance…
Thank you again for all your work.
Dear Drew,
I was touched to read your post and hope you can find true and lasting relief. If you have not already done so, please give thought to having a:
1. Whole blood histamine test to know your methylation status. From your description, you could possibly be under or over methylated both of which can cause a range of disabling symptoms.
2. Serum blood copper test. Some of us have an unknown excess of copper which is a disrupter of neurotransmitters.
3. Pyroluria test. As a follower of Trudy, I imagine you have already tested yourself (via urine test or questionnaire) to know if you have pyroluria.
No doubt, your trauma sadly has taken a toll on you – as it would on all of us. But do be encouraged to know that how well one copes with life’s challenges also has a lot to do with one’s biochemistry. If balanced, we are best equipped to cope. If unbalanced, we are poorly equipped to cope, often thru no fault of our own. And best of all, with folks like Trudy, Peter Bongiorno, William Walsh, we can thru nutrients rebalance our systems and achieve greater health both physical and emotional. Best wishes!
Hello L and thank you so much for writing to me and for your kind and helpful advice and suggestions which I have noted. Warm wishes to you too. 🙂
Dear Drew, you are most welcome.
In case you may not already have read the excellent book by Joan Mathews Larson, it is Depression Free Naturally. The book covers depression but also anxiety, pyroluria and much more. The author explains how much we are our biochemistry. Also, she writes with great compassion and offers encouragement and hope to her readers. Her book is an enlightening, informative and uplifting read — as are the books of Peter Bongiorno and William J. Walsh.
One key point that I have come to understand is that it is very common for us to have more than one type of imbalance in our biochemistry. As such, healing will come when all the necessary corrections are made. For example, one might have both pyroluria and under methylation. One would then need to be on both a pyroluria and under methylation supplement program to fully heal.
I owe so much to Trudy – for her own work/book/blog and for acquainting us with the other great practioners out there!
Thanks L for your kind words for me and offering ideas for Drew. I also love Joan Mathews Larson and her work! I’d love to interview her too – working on it!
Thanks for that L, I will explore those books too…
Can I take GABA and theanine while taking Neurobilogix neurotransmitter support for my MTHFR? Thankyou!
Chris
Very likely but it seems there are many Neurobilogix products so it’s hard to know. Please share links to products and I can comment
With the help of your excellent book, I learned I have pyroluria and I learned how to start to manage it. I have used GABA Calm with good results for anxiety. I have also had good results with opening a GABA 750mg capsule and putting a small amount on my tongue. I always go “low and slow” with dosing letting my symptoms guide me.
In the early days of taking the B6 and Zinc my body desperately needed, I found I also needed to raise my serotonin. For my particular biochemistry, I found 5HTP to provide better relief than tryptophan during epsiodes of anxiety. After a few months, my anxiety epsiodes are much reduced and I now need GABA Calm less and less. I also now need to add 5HTP only occasionally.
I have found that amino acids do indeed work. They also provide critical relief for anxiety while we are working to correct our underlying biochemical imbalances and nutrient deficiencies.
Trudy, I am so grateful for your book and blog. Thank you!
Thanks so much for sharing – I’m so happy for you! Thanks too for offering inspiration and hope to others reading this!
I had read that you were reluctant to use phenibut from previous blog posts, but was delighted to see this post offering more insight into why. Thanks for the info! I learn so much from you.
Is this natural and non-addictive. I have so suffered from anxiety my whole life. I quit college because of it and it has nearly ruined my life in so many respects. But I don’t want to become addicted to something expensive as I am of very moderate income.
Phyllis
I’m sorry to hear this. GABA is non-addictive and addresses a GABA deficiency if that is what is causing the anxiety. There are many possible causes of anxiety but doing a trial of GABA is a quick and affordable way to determine if it is one of the causes.
I read that gaba can reduce blood pressure, not sure if this would be a problem for my son who has low blood pressure/pulse.?
Cheryl
This is a precaution with GABA and it’s a watch to see how someone does. I’ve seldom seen it to be a problem. Just a reminder that I always start low with GABA – at 125mg (or lower for the very sensitive)
Hello Trudy,
I have chronic insomnia with high cortisol levels. Recently done tests have shown low GABA, high glutamate, high copper, low lithium levels. Is there a particular brand of GABA you recommend over others? I have trouble staying asleep more than 4 hours at a stretch. Practically speaking, is Pharma GABA superior to GABA in any way when it comes to a case such as mine?
Thank you in advance.
Neha
I use Seriphos for the high cortisol https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/seriphos-original-formula-anxiety-insomnia-cortisol/. If the insomnia is due to low GABA (it could also be high cortisol or low serotonin) I use a GABA-only product. Generally it seems more effective than pharmaGABA. Timed-release melatonin is also something I will consider. Of course diet is big – protein at breakfast for blood sugar control, no gluten, no caffeine, no sugar and addressing gut health and SIBO too.
Thanks for the prompt reply, Trudy!
Any GABA brand in particular that you prefer? Also, any idea of the recommended dose per body weight – I understand how everyone’s needs vary widely but it would be good to know a rough starting point.
Neha
I like GABA calm https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/source-natural-gaba-calm-anxiety/ and do recommend reading my book (here on Amazon http://amzn.to/2kptFWm) before starting on the aminos so you have a good understanding of precautions and how to use. There is also plenty on the blog about this. I don’t use weight but have clients do trials (https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/how-to-do-an-amino-acid-trial-for-anxiety/) based on the questionnaire.
I know I am late in the game here, so forgive me is a comment addresses this already as I didn’t read them all. GABA supplements, like so many others, are proving to work at best as a placebo. GABA itself very poorly crosses the blood brain barrier. It would take massive doses for most people to get results.
Phenibut, athough addictive, works wonders at even low doses and easily crosses the blood brain barrier. Also it is converted out of the brain faster than GABA which doesn’t leave quickly. Also, much like so many chemicals and hormones in our body, there needs to be synergy with other chemicals. In the case of GABA, Glutamate needs to be balanced. Often low GABA is as a result of low Glutimate so in fact MSG might even help you assuming you have it a lunch and not dinner (otherwise excitability).
Anyway, It seems to me there is more to this topic that people should be made aware of. Remember, that placebo is VERY powerful and most likely any GABA supplements are only taking advantage of that brain feature as it has not had clinical trials yet. The number of success stories seem to model placebo.
I myself take Phenibut at 250 mg (small dose) when I have some excitability. Phenibut works on both GABA A and GABA B receptors. addiction potential is VERY VERY high though, so only use sparingly when needed. Believe it or not bodybuilders take it BEFORE workouts, because it actually can synergize with Glutamate for higher energy. Again balance is the key everyone. I don’t recommend GABA supplements, they just don’t pass the test (clinical trials that is).
David
Respectfully I have to disagree about GABA not working although I’m sure many would be happy with a placebo effect. I also do not recommend phenibut under any circumstances because of the addiction and withdrawal aspect.
Here is a links for further reading and feedback on GABA results https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/gaba-physical-tension-stiff-tense-muscles-type-anxiety/ My blog is a wealth of information on this topic if you’d like to read further.
This article on placebo, nutrients (she uses the term alternative) and caring practitioners is also a good one http://lissarankin.com/is-alternative-medicine-just-a-placebo
Finally I’m curious how you trialed GABA and if you used it sublingually?
A naturopath gave me phenibut to use long term. Now I am hooked. How do I effectively get off this substance. I take it before sleep when I get up at night and in the morning equally. How would you go about tapering of this stuff? I am very nervous as I am still rittled with anxiety despite all of this. I have tried GABA with little success.
I also have low b12, which I feel may be part of the cause of the anxiety
Thank you!
Lore
It’s really best that you work with your practitioner. I assume they know you’re having issues. As with a benzodiazepine it’s best to work with the prescriber and get as nutritionally stable as possible (https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/60-nutritional-biochemical-causes-of-anxiety/) before starting to taper and then tapering very very very slowly. I use GABA (sublingually for those who don’t find success swallowing GABA) and other nutrients based on each person’s need (like theanine, tryptophan, melatonin, niacinamide etc) and sometimes light therapy and essential oils like lavender and citrus.
You’ll see baclofen recommended to help with tapering (https://americanaddictioncenters.org/withdrawal-timelines-treatments/phenibut/ and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23391959) but this has it’s own set of issues. There is some useful info phenibut itself on Drugs Forum “a small non-profit that runs one of the most read drug information & addiction help websites in the world” (https://drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197758). I would not use a benzodiazepine or kava kava. I’m not sharing these to scare you but wanted to comment in case you come across them when searching online.
May I ask how much you’ve been using and for how long and how you know you’re hooked? And what product?
Are their any supplements that could help with gabapentin withdrawl? I have been taking 1200 mg daily for months. I ran out today and wonder if I should contact a doctor for a refill or not. My doctor moved from the clinic and I can’t find her new contact information.
Thank you,
KuriousKittie79
Gabapentin should not be stopped cold turkey and needs to be tapered under medical guidance. As with SSRI tapers I have my clients get nutritionally stable first before tapering (real whole food, no gluten, no sugar, no caffeine, address gut health, adrenal support etc etc) and use nutrients like GABA, tryptophan, niacinamide, melatonin, zinc etc during the taper
Hi, I love your information and share it with my clients and colleagues! Personally I am always working on the balance of amino acids, minerals, vitamins, and herbs to combat anxiety, depression and insomnia. Wanted to share a couple of things: I used to take 50-200 mg of 5-HTP with 500-1500 Gaba (all capsules) before bed for sleep. After about 2 years, this protocol stopped working. I switched the 5-HTP over to 500-1500 mg of L-Tryptophan and have been using that with Gaba for about 8 years now, before bed. 2 major surgeries caused more insomnia and I was given a Benzo in the hospital for sleep which carried over to longer-term use. I found a wonderful product (local to MN) by Nutri Dyn/Metagenics that has a similar effect as Benzo medications. It’s called MyoCalm Plus https://www.metagenics.com/myocalm-plus
I like to take 3 tablets of this before bed, with extra magnesium glycinate, and some sublingual melatonin.
Hopefully this is not too much – if I miss something I don’t sleep as well.
Thanks for all that you do and for your great research and information!
Kara Carper, LN, CNS
Kara
Thanks for your kind words and thanks for sharing your experiences with the amino acids. Glad you’ve discovered Myocalm – these minerals combined with calming herbs are often so helpful although there are a subset of people who can’t tolerate valerian, saying it keeps them awake and gives them nightmares. But there is no one size fits all and you’ve clearly found your solution.
It’s not clear – are you still also using tryptophan and GABA? and how much of that helps with the sleep and mood? Are you still taking the benzodiazepine?
Hi Trudy,
I hope you won’t mind my saying but I genuinely don’t feel your piece here contributes any light to this subject and gives, to me at any rate, the impression of somebody who has neither clinical nor personal experience of phenibut use
The general scientific consensus is that GABA taken as a supplement cannot pass the blood brain barrier (except perhaps in the case of a leaky brain). This is why, contrary to what you state above, it does not work so well. Most research suggests effects are modest and may owe to placebo, to downstream brain effects from actual enteric effects and/or due possibly to a “leaky brain”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594160/
I have worked with nutritional and nutraceutical approaches to mood and mental health for years and believe that phenibut is immeasurably more potent (with commensurate risks of course) than GABA which mostly does close do nothing (as indeed comments here attest to).
Yeah dude, I already tried. The challenge here is getting past the “well my opinion is…” part and get anyone to discuss neuroscience and even the psychology of placebo (or nocebo). Just glad to know that there are other rational minded people who know that self deception is so vast and so powerful that clinical Medicine needs to do double blind AND controlled studies in three (actually 5) stages. This is quackery but with good intention.
Conor
I actually do have clinical experience of phenibut use – in the way of feedback from many clients who have experienced adverse effects. I also have colleagues who have similar concerns to mine. I will admit that I do not have experience with the personal use of phenibut and would not want to given the issues and risks.
I agree that phenibut does have potent positive effects and do mention this in my article. It’s the potent negative effects that concern me. This Oct 2017 case study is particularly concerning: Phenibut (β-Phenyl-γ-Aminobutyric Acid) Psychosis https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Citation/2017/09000/Phenibut____Phenyl___Aminobutyric_Acid__Psychosis.38.aspx. here is another one: Dissociative Intoxication and Prolonged Withdrawal Associated With Phenibut: A Case Report https://insights.ovid.com/pubmed?pmid=28614159
The recent schoolboy overdose in Queensland, Australia is reported to be due to phenibut use. There is no official report yet or information on how much they used or even if it may have been spiked with something else but this article offers some background https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/tests-show-gold-coast-students-took-russian-drug-phenibut-in-mass-overdose-20180228-p4z22x.html
I’m surprised you link to this 2015 paper: Neurotransmitters as food supplements: the effects of GABA on brain and behavior https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594160/ where the authors state this: “We suggest that any veridical effects of GABA food supplements on brain and cognition might be exerted through BBB passage or, more indirectly, via an effect on the enteric nervous system.” I do agree with this statement from the paper: “We conclude that the mechanism of action of GABA food supplements is far from clear, and that further work is needed to establish the behavioral effects of GABA.”
Feel free to read this blog post for very positive feedback on the calming effects of GABA – GABA, the calming amino acid: products and results https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/gaba-calming-amino-acid-products-results/
I have found that when GABA is used sublingually it is much more effective than when it’s swallowed. Based on your many years of working in this industry, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts/experiences on sublingual GABA as a better way to see benefits? And why you would recommend a product like phenibut which you admit has risks?
I always appreciate a healthy debate so thanks for posing the question
I never said I recommend phenibut Trudy. What is said should be self evident
There is invariable a relatively linear risk / efficacy relationship in just about all therapeutic interventions such that the options delivering most potential benefits carry more risks. It seems to me you have researched the risks of phenibut but show limited knowledge of the possible enormous benefits of same
What I have seen in my work is nobody (I can’t think of one person) ever helped significantly by GABA. (Most people seem to forget to keep taking it as it offers such a limited effect). The sublingual thing I hear being repeated in internet land but I’m not aware of any science behind it in this case. (As a method of dosing it lessens impact of first pass liver metabolism but this is not the issue with oral GABA: it’s the BBB issue).
Re phenibut i have seen some people whose lives have been utterly transformed for the better by its judicious use. Regrettably, as with anything potent, some slip into misuse patterns. Ultimately potential for abuse exists with anything that offers benefits, phenibut included. But I feel it is wrong to dismiss its potential enormous benefits for many due to its possible potential for misuse in some.
Conor
I really have to respectfully disagree with much of this
1) “There is invariable a relatively linear risk / efficacy relationship in just about all therapeutic interventions such that the options delivering most potential benefits carry more risks.” I’m all about no risk and GABA is effective with no risk (other than breathlessness at very high doses or feeling too sleepy/too relaxed). Going gluten-free, addressing dysbiosis, getting off caffeine etc are other examples of no risk and very effective approaches for addressing anxiety.
2) I am very curious what work you do especially when I hear this “What I have seen in my work is nobody (I can’t think of one person) ever helped significantly by GABA. (Most people seem to forget to keep taking it as it offers such a limited effect)”? I’m curious if you read the blog with link to client feedback? My clients certainly never forget to take their GABA or the other amino acids because it helps them so much!
A discussion like this holds more credibility when we both know each others full names, experience and backgrounds.
3)”Regrettably, as with anything potent, some slip into misuse patterns.” – ditto the examples above and addiction is not someone slipping into abuse patterns. No-one starts using a product with the hope they won’t become addicted.
Maybe this feedback from other experts using GABA with much success will help. https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/gaba-calming-amino-acid-expert-opinions/
I love this comment from Josh Friedman, Alternative Mental Health Solutions, a dear friend, colleague and integrative psychotherapist who uses amino acids and other nutritional approaches in his practice. I also had the honor of interviewing him on season 1 of the Anxiety Summit. I ask him if he uses GABA with his patients and what he thinks about the naysayers. I just love his answer:
“[GABA] is definitely something I use. I am not a biochemist, so I actually don’t really know whether it crosses the blood/brain barrier, nor do I care actually. The first question should be, is it harmful? Are any of these things going to cause harm? And the answer with all the amino acids are no, they’re not going to cause harm, especially when compared to psychiatric medicines. The second question is, does it work? Is it helpful for our patients that we see in our practice?”
I can agree that there is no research on sublingual use. It’s just an approach that I’ve evolved into using as I work with more and more clients and find it to be much more effective.
It’s been a good discussion and it seems neither of us are going to have our minds changed
I know Josh. (Ar least we’ve corresponded a few times about various things). I can’t see what other aminos have to do with this discussion.
Being all about ‘no risk” is a nice idea. I daily work with people who might be a danger to themselves or others due to extreme mental illness; children being committed against their wishes to psych hospitals etc. In these contexts, the relative efficacy and risk of many sometime less palatable options need to be carefully weighed. In my experience GABA is close to placebo which certainly can’t be said of phenibut
HI Conor, So in your experience what is judicious use?
So to avoid risks of dependance and tolerance, best only dosed perhaps one or 2 times a weeks. So ideal in situationally dependent anxiety: anything from public speaking in the otherwise perfectly healthy, to helping those with things like agoraphobia, social phobia etc opt to get out there and pick up their lives.
Conor
Sublingual GABA works perfectly in these situations with none of the risks – assuming the situational anxiety is due to low GABA. Even if it’s not due to low GABA, using GABA may help a little. We’ll also look at low serotonin and pyroluria/social phobia and address all the other root causes like gut health, possible gluten issues, low zinc and low vitamin B6 for the social phobia etc.
I don’t agree that anxiety during public speaking should occur in “the otherwise perfectly healthy”. If you have anxiety when doing public speaking you are not perfectly healthy and the root cause needs to be found and addressed. Here is a great example of a client I worked with https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/overcome-your-fear-of-public-speaking/
I’m going to leave this one now Trudy as I hope I’ve helped somebody out there. Oral GABA and phenibit are only comparable as say. aspirin is to morphine. Very different tools for very different uses.
Hello Trudy,
My 21 years old son has ASD and has been showing tantrum/outburst, OCD, Aggression, SIB, RRBs, and verbally abusive. He was on Resperidal for since 2013- 2017 and was taken off for a whole year as it was no longer helping him. He’s also been on GF/CF, no soy and peanut diet since he was 7. Several months ago, we tried SSRI’s which made him angrier. Beginning of last July, we started Depakote. However, up to this date, he is still showing all the mentioned problems. I watched your interview regarding amino acids at the nutrition summit and bought the book. When I brought this up to my son’s psychiatrist, she said not to use it as she mistook GABA calm to Gabapentin. In my internet search, there are various forms of GABA. What are the differences between, GABAcalm, PharmaGABA, and Gabapentin? My son is also taking Neuro-serene (Dr. said its okay with Depakote) which has Gamma-Aminobutyric Acid (ParmaGAVA)100mg. How different is this to GABA Calm? Also about the Tryptophan, has there any recent issues regarding EMS (Eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome) related to Trytophan?
May I offer some direction that skepticism still exists. The microbiome seems to be highly complicit in ASD, there is even a new oral bacterium test that seems to help identify ASD.
Fecal transplantation is beginning to show significant success rates although still very young in clinical studies. Although not FDA approved they cannot regulate what you do in the bathroom so to speak.
Diet can indeed influence this microbiome, and yet some strains of healthy bacteria may not exist to flourish from this approach (for some).
I myself administered Fecal Transplant for my disease of CVID with Myalgic encephalopathy. My condition was very similar to ASD for many years. The Nordic countries are much further along in this area of science and Britain has clinics if you are worried about self administered.
My doctor put me on a supplement with Phenibut in it to help me sleep at night as I was tapering off of Clonazepam that I was put on for restless legs 10 years ago. I have been off of the Clonazepam for 3 weeks. Now to read that Phenibut, which I have been taking nightly for the past 6 months, probably made it fairly easy to get off of it because it isn’t much different. I already am dealing with increased anxiety, sleeplessness, and a constant tingling and burning feeling in my body, which is really scary. I don’t know how to taper because the supplement, which has 300mg of Phenibut in it, is a capsule. I have been taking GABA to try and calm me but I have not noticed it to help at all. I already asked my doctor about all of this and his response was for me to go back on a small dose of the Clonazepam and was very defensive about the Phenibut saying it was fine and that I need something to help me to sleep and control my anxiety, that I now have much worse than before. What do I do here?
Hello Trudy,
I was recommended phenibut by an ND who didnt think it was addictive. Well I am hooked and I need to get off of it, I take quite a bit. I also have an underlying anxiety condition which is there because of my gut issues. I can’t seem to make much progress with gut programs without addressing the phenibut. I have inversed cortisol levels, high at night, and for some reason once I start feeling good on a protocol , sleeping, less anxiety etc, then everything reverses and I start reacting with a racy heart to my nighttime dose of phenibut.
Whats worse is that after a predicament at the hospital due to the phenibut I was forced to go to a psych who tried to get me off the stuff by giving me a cocktail of stuff. This all seems so hopeless, there are so many factors here. I also take 5-htp at night. What a mess this is.
Please if you could give me some guidance as to what to do now, it would be greatly appreciated. I am nervous to go to an addiction clinic but feel like there may not be other options for me.
I know you didn’t ask me Erol but I work with these kinds of clinial issues daily and have plenty experience with phenibut (whereas Trudy states she doesn’t use it at all).
I’d recommend you titrate down on your phenibut (it’s usually not a problem for anybody staying on it; it’s the quitting that causes issues and titrating down over time is the way to avoid any nasty withdrawal stuff)
If you don’t mind saying, are you using a lot?
Are you dosing twice a day or just nighttime?
Before I make a suggestion, can I ask if you are sure the 5HTP is helping you? (As often as not, it doesn’t but people assume it will due to what they’ve heard)
Thank you for commenting!
Unfortunately I am on about 1600mg. I know, I know.
I dose at 9pm 3pm and 9am because I have insomnia.
The 5-htp if I dont take it causes rapid heartbeat so I need to taper that as well.
I also should add anytime I have used GABA, or lithium or a calming supplement, over time I feel great but then I react with a waking & shaking at around 11pm- the time I have my highest cortisol.
This boggles my mind.
I also have an underlying anxiety disorder.
This is just a big mess. To boot I have gut/mercury issues which need to be addressed.
I appreciate any advice you have, I wish they had a holistic detox center!
UGH! Did the post I made not get posted?
Conor I got your message in my email but cant see the rest of it!
Maybe replying to the original header will do it?
Hey Erol,
Not sure what’s going on but feel free to mail me at Conor@SmartEaters.org …
Hey Erol, I currently can’t see any replies to your original question but just 1 line excerpts appearing in my Email. Thanks
Erol
Sorry to hear this. I have my clients do a very slow taper and make sure to include nutritional support. Sublingual GABA and/or theanine often helps if low GABA is one of the underlying issues. I’m also learning that CBD may help too (this would be CBD as part of a full spectrum hemp product) as does melatonin in some folks. But it’s a case by case basis for each person i.e. using a functional medicine approach is key.
I prefer to use tryptophan to support low serotonin when cortisol is high as 5-HTP has been shown to raise cortisol levels. My favorite nutrient for lowering cortisol is Seriphos https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/seriphos-original-formula-anxiety-insomnia-cortisol/
I know you don’t want to hear this right now but getting “hooked” and building up tolerance, typically needing more and more, is a common issue with phenibut, and why I’m not a fan. May I ask if you started lower and found you needed more and more? And over what period this happened?
Erol
Adding this from a case report published earlier in 2018. It’s always best to work with a practitioner who is familiar with phenibut issues and to be monitored. “Tolerance may develop with long-term phenibut use and dosage increases may result in significant side effects. In addition, abrupt discontinuation of phenibut may result in withdrawal which can be severe and require hospitalization. Physical and psychological withdrawal symptoms include anxiety, agitation, decreased appetite, depression, cognitive deficit, fatigue, dizziness, palpitations, insomnia, nausea/vomiting, and tremors. Psychotic symptoms such as auditory/visual hallucinations, disorganization, and delusions have also been reported.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5952553/
Hi Trudy, I am familiar with all the problem assoc with phenibut. Thank you.
I got on it not knowing that I would have an issue getting off of it. I have never felt the need to have more and more of this substance or any substance for that matte. I just dont have that kind of thing in me. Also I believe that the phenibut is still working as well as it did before, though I dont know for sure.
Thanks for your ideas!
HI Trudy,
For some reason this page has a problem accepting peoples posts. Conor and I both have had that happen, several times.
Anyways, thank you for your response.
I have not needed more. I don’t even think that the dosage has stopped working for me. When I go off too high a dosage at a time, it causes a racy heart and anxiety. Same thing happens with when I take off too high a dosage of 5-htp, I agree that I probably do not need it though.
Everything I try to get off of seems so jaring. I think my underlying gut issues(which are really bad) is a big factor in this however I cant seem to progress on my protocol without getting off this stuff.
Full spectrum cannabinoid oil means it has traces of THC, right? I dont think I can get that without a prescription here. I would be willing to give it a try though!
I would love to be able to use sublingual GABA. Every time I’ve used that (and also other calming things like lithium) I feel better initially(with my anxiety) then I start to get the shakes around 11pm when my cortisol peaks. I dont know what it is. Maybe with the GABA and be taking Phenibut its causing too much gaba? I dont know.
Thanks Trudy for all that you do!
Message for Erol
Hi Erol. I’m not sure why but it seems that you resonded to my response to you? (Shortened excerpt for your 2nd posting hit my Email but I see here neither my posting nor your 2nd mail back ..) So Ill keep an eye here to see if I can help you out but as I say, right now, I didn’t get your full post. Did however see 1600mg … Is this the dose you’re using 3 times in a day? Or a day’s total? If the latter, it’s really not that much. Stuff has a long half life so most peeps find dosing twice in a day is plenty … Just start to come down in your dosage and/or consdier dropping from 3 to 2 doses per day. If I get to see your 2nd posting, I can maybe suggest more
I appreciate very much hearing both sides of this conversation, and everyone’s clinical and personal experiences here, and I’d like to share my own, briefly.
I was recommended phenibut for insomnia by a past doctor of mine whose opinion I highly respected, though he really didn’t give me any info on it. The supplement I bought from him also contained melatonin, which I didn’t initially realize and had never taken before. I took 1/2 dose as stated on the label (I don’t recall mg off the top of my head) nightly for three weeks, and it worked like an absolute charm- I consistently had some of the best sleep of my life. Before the 30 capsules ran out I tried going without and realized I was hooked hard. I then had some of the worst, persistent insomnia of my life- far worse than it had been prior to phenibut. I tried a melatonin supplement on its own, which did nothing to help. It took me about two months to recover, and I swore I would never take it again. A year and a half later I have begun taking it again, but only once or twice a week and I find this to be working well for me. I will try to take it even less moving forward, but it is amazing for nights I really cannot sleep, and leaves me feeling better in mood and energy for days afterward.
Thanks for your writing, Trudy.
Regular GABA does not work for anxiety at all. It cant cross the blood brain barrier and the dose you need to take to make a little bit cross and work will cause your autonomous nervous system to stop breathing for you and you will have to focus to breath Ive experienced this first hand its scary but your fine just breath lol. Phenibut can cause withdrawal anything that changes your neurotransmitters or binds to their receptors have this potential including many other legal substances. There should be an age limit tho for sure, but if alcohol is allowed all GABA drugs should be because alcohol withdrawal is the most dangerous among them and highly toxic to your liver and damaging to the brain. An adult is the only person responsible for themselves as such I never agree with regulation I dont believe one adult has the right to tell another how to live unless its infringing on another persons rights, an using a drug at its worse is only self-harm if that person then does something to someone else they are fully responsible not the drug. In short of anxiety drugs that actually work phenibut is one of the safest and fairly easy to taper back off quitting cold turkey is terrible and making it illegal would be the reason someone has to quit cold turkey an is the sole reason most addicts are eradicate because the drug their brain is dependent on to function normally is not obtainable…. thats when people get robbed or killed for money and/or drugs.
Lee
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you – GABA does work when used sublingually and when you have low GABA levels i.e. you need it. Check out this blog with feedback from folks who have experienced the benefits https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/gaba-calming-amino-acid-products-results/
Too much GABA for your unique needs can cause breathlessness and even a niacin-like flush and many folks start with too high a dose of GABA (like 500mg or 750mg instead of 125mg or less)
Baclofen is a good substitute for phenibut esp at low doses. It does not stimulate HGH receptors which induce addiction. In conjunction with picamilon, both provide good coverage of GABA A and B receptors
I have been taking Neuro Science Kavinace for years. They have discontinued the formula. I have no idea what to do now. I have two weeks worth left. I take one capsule before bedtime. What should I do? I keep reading about withdrawl symptoms. I’m very nervous about stopping this.
Ruth
This is something I’m very concerned about and write further about here https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/phenibut-for-anxiety-and-insomnia-fda-warns-3-companies-to-cease-distribution-of-their-products/ Tapering from phenibut can be as challenging as tapering from benzodiazepines for some people. I have my clients get nutritionally stable before tapering any medications or something like phenibut – no caffeine, no sugar, no gluten, address all deficiencies like low zinc, low B6, low iron, address gut health etc and use the amino acids like GABA and tryptophan during the taper. Melatonin helps with benzo taper and may help with phenibut taper too.
Phenibut works well for many and, like all things that alter mood, can be addictive for some. As for myself, I’ve used Phenibut successfully for over 10 years for periods greater than 18 months at times, averaging a gram a day, and with a responsible taper, I suffer very few side effects or withdrawal symptoms. I taper whenever I feel like the effects are no longer as pronounced as they should be at 1.5 grams. I won’t go any higher than this.
My physicals are fine. My liver counts and blood work are fine. Blood pressure is fine. After a decade of solid phenibut use, I am perfectly fine.
To say that no one should take this supplement because some people have bad experiences is shortsighted and ignorant, simply put. Everyone should have the freedom to decide for themselves. There is no miracle blueprint for universal pharmacological safety.
That said, I hope your opinion remains with you.
Mike
Thanks for sharing your results with phenibut and glad to hear it helps. Sadly this is not the case for many and folks are not informed of the risks.
Apologies for the delay in your comment approval and my response. We had a computer glitch where a large number of comments were hidden from view in a spam folder. It mostly affected new folks who were commenting for the first time but it’s hopefully resolved now.
It has not been established that GABA supplements are non-addictive. I would do research on some other websites in order to see what people are saying about addiction. Some who take GABA supplements are reporting a bad withdrawal when they stop. I have read it can mimic alcohol withdrawal symptoms. I feel that it is probably not good to take GABA supplements everyday or on a very regular basis. Also, from my preliminary research it looks to me as though people are taking doses that are too potent.
RL
If you are referring to the medication gabapentin then I am in agreement. If you’re referring to the amino acid GABA, used in supplement form, then I respectfully disagree. I have seen no research saying it is and have not seen it clinically.
Kindly share links to where you have read this as I would like to learn more if some folks are in fact having issues.
I’m not sure what you define as too potent when it comes to GABA. I have clients start with 125mg and increase from there based on their unique needs.
Apologies for the delay in your comment approval and my response. We had a computer glitch where a large number of comments were hidden from view in a spam folder. It mostly affected new folks who were commenting for the first time but it’s hopefully resolved now.