Dr. Drew Ramsey, M.D., psychiatrist, farmer, author of Eat Complete, was interviewed on the Anxiety Summit by host of the Anxiety Summit, Trudy Scott, Food Mood Expert and Nutritionist, author of The Antianxiety Food Solution.
Nutrients that Fuel Brain Power and Reduce Anxiety
- The nutritional psychiatry movement and food as medicine
- The impact of food on brain health, neurogenesis and BDNF
- The hippocampus and your diet
- The 21 nutrients that are key for brain health
- The impacts of low zinc, low B12 and low choline diets
- How to get these nutrients in your diet
Here are some gems from our interview:
One, oftentimes mental health symptoms stem from dietary insufficiencies. So people can feel more down, more anxious, more cloudy in their thinking based on the types of food that they’re eating. And then secondly the strongest data is in terms of prevention. So if you do have a disorder – if you have an anxiety disorder or you do really struggle in a way with your mood there’s some data that both the development of depression and the recurrence of depression – it’s very highly correlated with your dietary pattern. And so nutritional psychiatry in summary is looking at mental health through the lens of food and then adding nutrition as a tool to our toolbox as clinicians. I suspect most folks who are listening, maybe you’ve seen a mental health clinician. If you think back to that initial intake was there really detailed dietary history that understood you as an eater? And usually the answer is no. And even in my own practice until a number of years ago that was no. And I’ve trained at some of the best places when it comes to mental health.
No fault of those organizations but it feels to me that this has been a tremendous blind spot for us both in medicine and in mental health. So I’m very excited to see this growing movement. We have the new International Society of Nutrition and Psychiatry Research. There’s been tremendous interest from the American Psychiatry Association in terms of how do we get this into our treatment standards. So it’s a very exciting moment I think in mental health. And I also personally like it because it allows me to talk about some other subjects besides psychotherapy or medications with my patients. And so it’s a lot of fun to be talking about kale salads and do you know how to make ceviche and have you ever made mussels at home.
I love that Dr. Ramsey says: “I eat for a bigger hippocampus.” The hippocampus is an area of your brain involved in emotional regulation and learning. We talked about this in the context of the research published by Dr. Felice Jacka and her team: Western diet is associated with a smaller left hippocampus and anxiety
Dr. Ramsey talks about zinc and animal protein:
Zinc is a mineral and minerals tend to be more absorbable in animal forms. I think a lot of people are very confused about meat and seafood and often intimidated and scared. And then we’ve had this message to go plant based and even vegan which is not a diet that is healthy for the brain.
And low choline and anxiety:
And if you look especially in terms of anxiety really there’s not a lot of data, not a lot of scientific data about anxiety disorders and food. There’s some but the clearest data signal comes from the Hordaland study that looked at correlations of anxiety disorders and different nutrients and found people with lower choline had much higher rates of anxiety.
Dr. Ramsey has written some wonderful books. Here are two of them:
Eat Complete: The 21 Nutrients That Fuel Brainpower, Boost Weight Loss, and Transform Your Health
Here is Dr. Ramsey’s 7-Day Brain Boost
If you are not already registered for the Anxiety Summit you can get live access to the speakers of the day here: www.theAnxietySummit.com
Missed this interview or can’t listen live? Or want this and the other great interviews for your learning library? Purchase the MP3s or MP3s + transcripts and listen when it suits you.
You can find your purchasing options here.: Anxiety Summit Season 1, Anxiety Summit Season 2, Anxiety Summit Season 3, and Anxiety Summit Season 4.
Where do you get the real dark chocolate? or which brand do you recommend? I don’t eat any sugars, soys or carbs/wheat. Many dark chocolate contain soy lectin and cane sugar even the organic ones (eg. “Theo organic fair trade” 70%). My HbA1C is 5.8 so I really don’t want to eat extra sugar but love dark chocolate.
Thanks,
Odna
Bulletproof Upgraded Chocolate Powder – Dave Asprey’s site. Buy from his site or Amazon if in UK. Not a chocolate bar but better. Make hot chocolate the bulletproof way with a heaped tablespoon of grass fed butter, tablespoon of coconut oil, heaped teaspoon of chocolate powder,one or 2 mugs boiling hot water and blend for with hand blender for 20 sec until frothy.
I’d be cautious with anything chocolate as the caffeine can affect anxiety but thanks for the suggestion
Would it be possible to obtain a copy of Dr. Ramsey’s intake that he uses with his clients? I am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor in VT and would like to update my intake forms to include questions about food and nutrition and would love some help in putting this together. Another’s clinician’s form would be extremely helpful to me. Thank you for considering my request. Julie
Julie
Excellent plan and love that you are incorporating this into your work. I’ll reach out to Dr. Ramsey to see what we can arrange
super – thank you so much Trudy!
As an LMFT in CA, I would also love to provide it to clients.
Thank you.
Karen
I’ve contacted him and will post when I get something we can share. What are you actually looking for i.e what do you see as being helpful to you as a LMFT? I ask because as a nutritionist it’s something myself and my colleagues use all the time and I’d be happy to share some of what I use once I know more
Appreciate the idea of dark choc almonds. Wondering if there is a brand to look for? Currently I enjoy dark choc ginger. But my teen in residence will gobble up dark choc almonds 🙂
Michelle
I would look for organic but of course home-made with soaked almonds are ideal. And be careful of the gobble aspect as they can be overdone! Another great snack for teens is grass-fed beef jerky
good talk, am ordering the books, in the meantime since we are lacking in said nutrients does Dr Ramsey recommend a supplement brand to get the right quantities, co-factors etc. I get he recommends it in food but with leaky gut etc and little organic food available here in Perth Australia (often five times the price), a supplement(s) would be useful. Also PLEASE post the link to many of the studies he refers to.
Hi Pip,
I could not help but notice you mentioned you are in Perth, AU! I have a group of folks in the area that I Educate in Holistic Health, for free.
If you can, email me at kedzi@aol.com so we can connect. I would love to answer your questions. I have 40 years in Natural Health. Kedzi
Pip
Enjoy the books! they will contain the references you are looking for. Dr Ramsey is a big proponent of food but I’m sure he’ll agree that nutritional deficiencies in sick individuals need to be addressed.
I was really looking forward to learning more from Drew but I am a little disappointing. I am trying my best to heal and move forward in my life with my health with out needing medication but I feel that he was suggesting that some people will need it. He stated sometimes you need to try something new. I was hoping I would be more inspired by this summit to continue to heal and help my anxiety and depression without hearing someone feel that medication is necessary for some.
Johanna
I suggest going back and re-listening to the food success story he shared and all the food information he shared and if it upsets you just ignore that one single sentence.
I’m a nutritionist and don’t have the option to prescribe medication so my thinking is a bit different. I’d keep looking for food-based and supplement solutions before using medication. It can really be achieved.
I also encourage you to keep listening in on the summit – you’ll be hopeful again as you hear more!
Trudy,
Thank your for your response. I will continue to listen! I am hopeful to learn some new tips and suggestions. I am amidst a PTSD trigger that has me feeling a large amount of anxiety and some depression and I am doing my best to push myself to do things other than sleep and to learn about new supplements that may help. I have been Paleo for 2 1/2 years and I have a functional doctor that is amazing and helps me tremendously. However, the one area that I am struggling with is my mental health and its effects. On the other side my diet and supplements have nearly halted my disease multiple sclerosis. I wish to do similar things with my mental health.
Thank you for replying
Johanna – when you have the time I recommend reading Kelly Brogan’s new book, “A Mind of Your Own”. Her blog posts at kellybroganmd.com are pretty informative and well-done as well. I think you might get some good info from this resource. Best wishes, Julie
Thanks Julie – how could I forget this!
I would also like to know Dr Ramsey’s nutritional intake form. I’m a psychotherapist in a NYC hospital & find major problems with poor food & nutrition in the population I work with. Unfortunately, I seem to be a voice in the wilderness when I talk about mood problems & nutrition.
Diana
Well done for being that voice! I’m waiting to hear back from Dr. Ramsey so we can help get your voice heard.
Please feel free to share this interview and the others with hospital staff. The blog posts have many references and the transcripts are excellent for people who prefer to read. My book and Dr. Ramsey’s books are also referenced heavily.
Also, so you can connect with others locally Dr. Ramsey and Dr. Bongiorno (serotonin speaker) are based in NYC and the Functional Forum meetings that James Maskell hosts (his community interview also aired today) have a big turnout in NYC.
Hello and a great talk Dr. Ramsey! I am a nurse with a dual masters degree in nursing education and Pediatric Nurse Specialist. You mentioned kale several times in your interview and even wrote a book about kale. My understanding has been that kale, even cooked could cause shredding of the intestines and even death. I am super interested in hearing your take on the matter! and how you use kale in your practice. I will be excitedly awaiting your reply! Thank you!
Debi
Glad you enjoyed it! I’ve reached out to Dr Ramsey asking him to either comment or send me an answer. I’ve deleted your email address btw.
I’m not aware of these effects of kale but will share the negative aspects I do know about. I would avoid kale if you have a food sensitivity to it. I would reduce it if you have issues with oxalates (with or without kidney stones – certain strains are lower in oxalates and may be ok), reduce/avoid raw kale with thyroid issues. Here is a good blog that discusses balance and excessive intake of kale http://robbwolf.com/2011/11/02/fear-and-loathing-at-the-dinner-table/ Obviously some people are more susceptible than others.
Overall kale is a wonderfully nutritious food as Dr. Ramsey loves to share
Thank you for your quick response! I appreciated your ideas regarding kale. I will check out the blog in the morning because I need some sleep! Thank you again!
Thanks for picking up on the oxalate issue, Trudy. I am someone with many chronic health challenges, including anxiety and depression, leaky gut, gluten intolerance, etc., etc. This is my fourth summit. Over these many years, I have learned that I have high oxalates, so all my years as a vegetarian were harmful to me. I am sorry to say I had to eliminate most kale, most nuts, especially almonds, chard, sweet potatoes, chocolate, et al. I encourage people with digestive issues and Dr. Ramsey to explore this, and I would love for you to have a speaker or a blog on the topic sometime.
Many thanks.
Lynne
Thanks for sharing – your story sounds very similar to mine! Julie Matthews and I actually covered this in great detail in an earlier summit https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/anxiety-summit-bioindividual-nutrition-and-special-diets/
Re: Oxalates
I am not a practitioner and was not able (or aware) to access this talk. Is there anyway to get more information on it? Oxalates are so important for someone with as many issues as I have.
Thanks.
Lynne
This talk and all the season 4 Anxiety Summit interviews will air for an encore tomorrow Thursday 16th. If you’re not yet signed up you can do so here http://www.theanxietysummit.com
We don’t actually cover oxalates in the talk but wonderful brain food is discussed. For more on oxalates http://www.lowoxalate.info
Trudy – On an earlier talk you mentioned you had SIBO … how did you / how does one, overcome SIBO – I have heard two methods – drink hot water with lemon before meals to increase HCL and gargle with water several times a day to somehow distribute the bacteria back to the large intestine … do either work and / or are there other methods? Carolyn
Carolyn
I’m afraid you’ve been led astray as neither of these are considered approaches for SIBO, which can be quite challenging to address. I would check out Dr. Siebecker’s site http://www.siboinfo.com to get the best and most current info on this topic.
Thank you Trudy, how can you test if you have high oxalates?
Thanks much !!
Romy
An organic acid test has some markers or you can simply slowly reduce high oxalate foods and then medium oxalate foods and observe symptoms of pain, anxiety, agitation
Trudy you refer to once one study comes out a lot more do. here please would I look for new studies on the effect of diet etc on PTSD? which journals, groups, websites?
Pip
I use pubmed as a starting point
Hello!
This was a great interview.
I noticed that on some of the different “Gems…” web pages, including here, that some of us have PTSD. I have been diagnosed with Complex PTSD and have struggled with it for many years. I’m by no means 100% and have to be very aware of my triggers but I wanted to share some of what’s helped me in case it may be helpful to others. (I would recommend people check with their doctors, etc. before taking anything listed below, etc.)
Supplements that have been helpful to me thusfar (along with switching to a much healthier and balanced diet):
1. CBD Oil with Tryptophan: Lidtke has this and it can be legally shipped to about 48 states in the U.S. and to some countries overseas. Please note that it is not psychoactive and the mixture helps when I feel I need it. In other words, I don’t take it on a regular basis. I find myself only needing it when feeling panicky and depressed at the same time. I only take a couple of drops under the tongue.
2. Tryptophan (500 mg capsule) by Lidtke: I open the capsule and put the tryptophan in a little glass container. I take about a little less that 1/8 of a teaspoon throughout the day. I had to start slow on this because initially I felt more depressed on the tryptophan. I now have no problem with this. I would add that I often don’t need to finish the complete capsule in one day. Usually two days or a little more and the complete capsule contents are used up.
3. GABA Calm by Source Naturals: I usually take 1 lozenge during the day. It calms me but gives me a little lift too.
4. GABA (500 mg) by Solgar: I open up a capsule and take half of the contents every night. So, usually one capsule will last me two nights. However, if I’m having a rough night’s sleep, I’ll take the rest of the capsule.
5. HTP.Calm by Natural Balance: I only take this when traveling into cities. I used to take Diazepam (aka Valium) because of my panic attacks when traveling into cities. It is not recommended to take this when on an MAOI (which I am no longer on) because of the St. John’s Wort in it, etc. I must say, this really does help me when traveling into cities.
Some other things that have helped me:
1. There is an App (and my phone is not up and running right now as I’m having trouble with it) that lists the “Dirty Dozen” and “Clean 15” in regards to which food should be bought organically and which ones are “safe” if not organic. Organic food is usually often more expensive to buy (at least where I live) so we do our best to follow the lists recommendations. I must say, I have seen a tremendous difference in trying to get more organic foods into my diet. We just buy what we need so it won’t go bad.
2. Mindbell on Android has really helped me. I’m not a big meditator, but scheduling the Mindbell to ring at intervals of 5/10/30/60 minutes really helps me to recenter.
3. Peaceful music that lifts up my spirit.
4. AVOIDING THE NEWS. I know this may seem like sticking one’s head in the sand, but all I really need to know is the weather, travel and any alerts for our area or where we are traveling. It’s enough to deal with my own PTSD, dealing with Global PTSD (because I personally believe all the horrors and crimes in our world are trauma-based), is too much for me and I have to honor that in myself. Self-care first and then I can be there for another. That’s what’s helping me for now. May change as I get better and I’m open to that. Until then, I avoid the news OR good to a site that lists good news if I end up hearing any bad news.
I would end this post for now saying that the greatest help has been finally finding a therapist whom I feel comfortable with and trust. I know that diet and supplements are very helpful, but the most important help is working through the issues and triggers and getting to the many roots of my PTSD, anxiety, panic, etc.
Oh, also, really learning to love myself even with PTSD. For many years, I actually did not love myself and was ashamed of my PTSD. It didn’t help that I was surrounded by people who knew me before my PTSD and couldn’t understand and questioned, “WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU?”. Many of those relationships ended and I found some new ones. People who love you for who you are.
Anyway, I’ve gone on a bit here, but I hope some of this helps. Again, always check in with your doctors, psychiatrists, etc.
Peace!
Thank you so much for sharing all this – I know it will be very helpful to others.
I wish you continued healing